Fan Designed Cosmic Expansion Set Discussion

Phil Fleischmann (cont.): Suppose the power simply worked by replacing the Artifact with a card fished out of the discard pile, and no other changes made. That makes it *much* weaker, as you're limited by the cards that others have discarded, and you still have to burn an Artifact every time you use it. Even if you allow other non-encounter cards to be used, it's still essentially the Clone that requires discarding a non-encounter card, making it a weaker version of the Clone. The only small advantage it has is that the “cloned” card doesn't “take up room” in your hand. However, the card becomes inaccessible when the deck is reshuffled.

So let's say you have to remove the fished-out encounter card from the game. Now you've made the power even weaker, in that you no longer even have the cloning aspect. You have to hope someone discards a good card, burn an Artifact (or other non-encounter card) and then you get to use the power once, and you never get to use that card again. The best you can hope for is that someone will discard the 40, 30, both 23's, and both 20's. Now you get to use each of those cards once (assuming you can give up a non-challenge card - which means you not only have to have one, but be willing to not benefit from its normal use). As the high cards are removed from the game, card values will start to matter less and less, as they become more average, weakening your own power over time.

As interesting as fishing through the discard pile might be, these versions all seem severely nerfed over the original. If it seems too weak, I'd say let it work with Reinforcements as well as Artifacts - but that's about it.

Phil Fleischmann: @Mark Hawkinson: You can't have the USE part be during the Planning phase, because no one can see the card you're playing face down.

Joker vs. Oracle - Joker must declare his card value before Oracle plays his card - that's the whole point of Oracle.

Joker vs. Gambler - both powers rely on the other player revealing his card first. Therefore we turn to the Timing Rule.

Joker vs. Loser (upset declared) - If Joker has no Attack cards left, he is not forced to play an Artifact, but if he does so, he must declare it to be an Attack. He can't play an Artifact and declare it to be an N when the Loser calls upset.

Joker vs. Mirror, Graviton, Calculator, etc., - The other power works as normal based on the wild card's declared value.

Remember that Joker's power is not at all an - auto-win. Even if you declare a 40, your opponent might have the *real* 40, or even the 30, and still win without much difficulty. And there are plenty of combat powers that can overcome the 40. Virus, Warpish, Industrialist, Warhawk, Leviathan, Deuce, Cavalry, etc., plus Reinforcements, Kickers, and plenty of other effects. So it's not nearly as guaranteed as the Pacifist. The only real advantage it has over the Pacifist, is that it can lose (and therefore win) in the Loser's upset encounter - declare the wild card to be a 00, or a -07 if the Reward Deck is in play.

Phil Fleischmann: Looking back on the Wild Flare that I wrote, I'm thinking it's no so good. How 'bout this instead:

You may play this Flare as a “wild” Artifact - having the effect of any Artifact in the game that use choose. After playing it, give this Flare to the Joker, or discard it if the Joker is not in the game.

Ales Smrdel: If we stick with the “non-encounter” card for the wild we actually make the Joker more appealing to games with more players. Probabilities range 32,9%(3-5p), 34,5% (6p), 36% (7p), 37,5% (8p) ... probability of Joker getting wild cards gets higher since with >5 player games we are adding additional Flares to the deck hence giving Joker more fuel for his mischief.

Original probabilities if wilds were only the artifact cards are: 13.4% (3-5p), 13,1% (6p), 12,7% (7p), 12.5% (8p) ... Could be that they are a little low so by adding the reinforcement cards we get: 20.7% (3-5p), 20,2% (6p), 19,7% (7p), 19,3% (8p) ... and that are probabilities for drafting one card from deck. I believe that Joker will have enough fuel with artifact and reinforcement cards and we are not favoring him in >5 player games. Also the drawback of 1.4% is marginal in comparison to 4.6% boost in probability with non-encounter cards.

Mark Hawkinson: @ales smrdel : I think non-encounter is balanced well with needing to use a card from the discard pile. But if we use the original version where it lets you name an arbitrary number, then yeah I suppose it would be a good idea to only use artifacts and reinforcements. @Phil: when you declare that you're using your power you could simply show people the card...

Stephen Sloboda: Remember, it's not just about the probability of whether the Joker has a wild card or not, it's the threat that he MAY have it. How you play as the Joker, not the cards themselves, can lead to opportunities rather than just having a lucky draw.

I still like the original. It's eloquent, and captures the feeling of “Jokers are wild.” I just don't like the wording. It's like, if Anti-Matter gets zapped, does he get a “take back”? Well, no because that's totally different, but it still seems wrong.

Ales Smrdel: He will have a wildcard in his hand ... the question is will he use it ... mischief all the way :P

Mark Hawkinson: yeah the take back thing is part of why I reworded it

Phil Fleischmann: How is it a take back? He has to play a card, right? And if his power is zapped, then he can't use his power to play an Artifact. So the Artifact that he played is not valid. An encounter card must then be played. That's the reason for revealing it first - without that rule, zapping the Joker doesn't take away his power, it just turns him into the Oracle.

Stephen Sloboda: My wording was that you play an Encounter as normal, then whenever you would reveal it, you use the power to replace it with an Artifact. So instead of flipping the card over like a normal reveal, you announce you are using the power. If someone zaps you, you do nothing and reveal the card as normal. If no one zaps you, you throw an Artifact instead of revealing the Encounter.

There's no need for “reveals first.” And even if there was, it's still not like Oracle, because Oracle chooses their pod AFTER the opponent, whereas with the Joker their pod will already have been chosen; the opponent doesn't get to take a card back.

Mark Hawkinson: Yeah Steven's version works nicely too. The fiddly part was that the first wording would place a card, THEN USE the power to change what would otherwise be an illegal play into a legal play. Steve's version makes it so that when you reveal instead of revealing the encounter card you play your wild card from your hand.

James Albright: The wild flare could be this: Search the deck for any card and add it to your hand, then give this flare to the player with the fewest colonies. If there is a tie, discard it.